The Sausage Factory

Matt: Welcome to the Sausage Factory. So this is our regular look at the world of content marketing. We're going to be celebrating the good and shining a light on the what could be better with a single aim of encouraging the world to make better content. So let's give you some introductions. I'm Matt Labon.

I'm a performance marketer and the founder of Rockee, which is a content feedback platform.

Mark: And I'm Mark Willis, creator, director, copywriter, and resident sausage enthusiast.

Matt: So together we're gonna be grinding the good, bad, and unidentifiable into 20 minute content sausages for you every single month.

Mark: And today in the Sausage Factory, we're joined by, copywriter and content marketer extraordinaire Jess Crandon of Salesforce. We'll be talking to Jess about her journey and content, finding out what it takes to make good content, and of course we'll be getting her to share. An example of great content in Matt's bangers and some not so good content in sausage of death.

So first off, welcome to The Sausage factory, Jess.

Jess: Thank you and thank you for having me. This is very exciting.

Matt: we're delighted to have you on. For our listeners, let's give a bit of an introduction to Jess. I mean these are all words on you. Feel free to correct us if you think it's wrong, but you are a season B2B writer, a content marketer.

So your experience is broad and deep. You've worked at some incredible agencies like Velocity Partners, MW Business and just global. You've also done the client side, side of things working for likes of Microsoft and Salesforce. And that's obviously where you are now, where your responsibilities for making great content and incredibly traveling the world.

So a tiny bit of inside info for everyone. Marcus hired Jess three times in her career. He's probably gonna try. And do it at least two or three more times after this, because she's very, very good at what she does. Jess, we'd delighted to have you on. How have we got on with the intros? Does that do.

Jess: God, I mean that really does highlight the, uh, the amount I move around. No, that is very kind. Thank you.

Mark: So, shall we get into it? Before we go to the blend, which is our interview section, we have the most important part of the show, clearly, which is, the sausage quiz. Now, for those of you who haven't encountered the sausage quiz before, It's a three part quiz, that gives us unparalleled insights into the soul of our guest.

, or maybe just their sausage preferences, if people have sausage preferences. So Jess, are you ready for this? We can dive straight in.

Jess: Okay, let's do it.

Mark: So first off, what's your favorite type of sausage?

Jess: Okay, so I feel this question might get me kicked out, but I really hate sausages.

Mark: No, that's

Matt: And the show and the show.

Jess: But I do love a cocktail sausage, but I dunno if they actually count, like proper

Mark: Yes. Cocktail sausage absolutely fine. So, do you have a favorite sausage based dish or is the sausage just going to ruin an otherwise tasty dish?

Jess: Yeah, it will. I'm afraid it ruins family barbecues. Even now to the point where my dad has known me for 32 years and still asks if I want a hot dog, and I'm like, dad, the answer hasn't changed for, 32 years and three months.

Mark: This is taking a turn for the controversial, which is, you know, what the sausage quiz is here, here to do. It kind of feels redundant, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do you have a preferred meat percentage? If you are going to eat a sausage, Jess?

Jess: I would say like 0% because I do love like a vegan Greg sausage roll. And then even like cocktail sausages, I feel probably are only floating around at like the 4% meat content. I reckon probably a lot of plastic in there. Yeah, I would say max 4%

Mark: This is all great information. I can see from Matt's face that this feature's probably gonna be canceled soon, so it's good to go out on a controversial hi.

Matt: I'm utterly delighted at some of the early data that we're getting on there, meat percentage of 4%. I dread to think what that 4% even consists of, if I'm honest. First of all, thank you Jess. Thank you for indulging Mark. And his, soon to be retired feature at the beginning of this show. It's interesting cause there's gonna be a really good infographic at some point, which explains all of this. So let's get, let's get into the main bit of it. So this is the section that we call the blend and we like really get into the details of it. , so I'm gonna kind of just go straight into your, your relationship with content marketing.

How did this journey start for you and, and who and what has influenced you along the way?

Jess: The journey very much started entirely accidentally. I had no idea that copywriting was a job, therefore had no idea that content was a thing really. I was working for Screaming Frog as an s e o person and a couple of days in. How a freelance writer let us down on a blog post we were meant to be doing.

And my boss was like, Hey Jess, you did English literature at university. You know, give it a crack. Write me 300 words on why should you use a business card or something. And I did. And he was like, oh, this is quite good. Do you wanna just do this? And I was like, Where's the scam? Why are you really gonna pay me to like, write, like, really, like, I don't understand this.

And I went from there. So started off as a, yeah, as a copywriter. And then through that I think just learned more about content marketing, uh, velocity. I got more into like the strategy side of stuff, so working on like brand positionings content strategy. And so it's, really been a very like trial and error career, I would say of going.

Okay, do these words work? And then when you figure out what words work, then being like, oh, well look at the broader aspect. Like what's the format, what's the strategy? Who's the reader? What's the goal? How are sales getting involved? It's been a very accidental career up until this point, which probably, I shouldn't say if, if anyone I work with, it's not an accidental career.

Mark: I, I think that. The number of copywriters who say they kind of fell into it accidentally is huge. And like you fall into it and then kind of develop a, a love for it, right? , I think Andrew Bolton's kind of talked a lot about that and about kind of making kids in school, aware of copywriting , as a career.

Jess: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's one of those things, it's such an amazing career. I mean, like it's. Definitely like the best and worst thing, and it's one of those jobs that still doesn't really feel like a job because you are like, I just get to make stuff up all day. Like, okay, yeah, you are within boundaries, but you know, essentially your job is just to sit down at a desk and just see what comes out of your head and convince other people that it is good stuff coming out of your head.

You know, it's, never felt like a job has felt hard and terrible many times, but it's never felt like a, a job,

Matt: As everything does, sometimes it's, becomes a bit of a passion. Like, on, on that note, what do you tend to enjoy most about creating content? And have you got any like particular highlights or things that you've done along the way that always stand out to you?

Jess: I guess there's like the two sides of it. So there's like the, the projects that have been amazing to work on. So I think the first brand positioning I did the first time I. Kind of sat down with the CEO O and went, I know your business better than you and this is what I think you should do.

And it's like, why is anyone listening to me? So I'm like, idiot in her late twenties, that's just got some thoughts and then people take you seriously and it works. That's always been a highlight like that. That kind of really helped me pivot from just being like a straight up copywriter to wanting to get more into the strategic content marketing side and, looking at it from that angle.

The thing I love most, I think it's, it's when you finally like nail something, it's when you finally go like, oh, this is what, like the hero of the story or this is what the reader is thinking at this point in time. And like, when you finally get into their head and go, this is what they wanna hear.

And you make that translation between what your client is saying or what the business is trying to sell. And finding that like sweet spot of here's what they wanna sell, here's what the reader wants to read. And here's like the fun bit that you can add, the creative angle or like the weird thing that nobody's kind of brought up yet.

That for me is the, that's the dream bit.

Mark: Yeah, it's also like one of the most important bits, isn't it? We talk about like the audience so much when we're talking about Rockee and trying to get. A shortcut into what they're thinking is, is kind of the premise behind the product as well. But, definitely. Um, audience that bit where you kind of feel like you really understand them, as you said, like crossing over with what you've got to offer.

Yeah. If you can kind of stumble upon that, that's gold.

Matt: What does that light bulb moment like look like? I'm saying this to someone who's not a writer. Just again, for anyone who's listening for the first time, I'm, I weirdly sit on the other side and just look at numbers and go, this is what good is which is funny enough part of the problem, but like, as a writer, when, you know, you really described that nicely, that moment where like something really lands and you understand it, you've got the story out, couldn't you are happy with it?

What does that moment of validation feel like? Is it something that happens particularly, or, is it just, kind of a knowing feeling?

Jess: I mean, I think to a certain extent and probably like. Mark and other writers will definitely feel this is, there is no moment of validation as a writer. You are constantly second guessing yourself and being like, is this good? Is this good? Does this work? But there is also a feeling of like beneath the neuroticism you almost feel like, imagine you're like walking down the stairs and you know, when you like, You think there's another step, but there isn't, and you land really hard.

Imagine that every single step is like that weird step where the step isn't where you think it is. I think that moment of when you finally nail it is the step is where you think the step is as you're going through like the process in your head and where like the thoughts kind of clunk into each other before there'd be like a, oh God, there's not a step, there's not a thought.

And then finally when it does all come together, you are like, Hey, this thought goes from one step to the next and I haven't. Fallen over or missed a step. Does that analogy work? I think that's a really weird, confusing analogy, but it's this kind of like when you can read through a piece and you're like, the next sentence is exactly what it should be after the sentence before it, that's when it kind of feels like there's no gaps here.

Mark: That makes complete sense. It's almost that kind of fluency you develop, like you would kind of Yeah, in the mindset of the audience and how to persuade them rather than kind of constantly fumbling for it and it kind of feels easier then as well, doesn't it?

Jess: Yeah, that's it. And, and I have like a couple of people that I keep in my head and, you know, especially being at, Salesforce, I have a lot of people who, who use Salesforce I know lot. Like it's the first thing someone will say to you if you say you work at Salesforce. I'll be like, I used it or I have used it.

And they'll tell you everything that they love or don't love about it. And I have a couple of those people in my head. So when I'm writing something or briefing something in or reviewing a piece, It's like, could I read this or could I play this to one of those people? And they're gonna go, oh yeah, this makes sense.

Or are they gonna turn around and be like, oh, marketing. So it's that.

Does this stand up to the people who I know will have an opinion on it?

Matt: Do you know what? That reminds me of a conversation we had quite a while ago around. What, what feedback looks like for you in terms of like your internal process. I might be misquoting you, but like you obviously you have to speak to different product managers, you have to speak to sales teams to understand particular features, functionality, what the types of things, the problems that the clients are saying to sales as well. What does that process look like? To share your top tips as it might be to try and get that right level of input without. Misdirecting from how you want to tell the story.

Jess: For me, and this is like a principle I think I've lived and died on for like my whole career. It's reader comes first Audience comes first. You can have as many different product marketers, product managers, salespeople, other marketers in other areas coming at you and saying, it needs to say this, it needs to say this, it needs to say this.

If that doesn't resonate, and if that's not gonna land, and that sounds like jargon or that sounds like we're trying to put words into someone's mouth and it's like, I will use that reader boundary as like a no, this isn't in the interests of this reader.

And I think that's, as a writer and as a content marketer, that's your fence, that's your way of being able to go back to somebody. And if you can say like whoever is like your internal stakeholders. If you can say, okay, why does this reader care? Tell me why. Like, why does this person who's never heard of us care about this thing that you want to tell them?

If they can come back with a really justifiably good reason, then I'm like, sure, okay. That can go in the brief or Sure, yeah, we can add that in or that's an acceptable piece of feedback. And like Doug Kessler, who is one of my absolute inspirations, and somebody that, you know, when I interviewed at Velocity and he interviewed me, I was like, starstruck.

It was ridiculous, So his piece about stakeholder management has, it's just so true. And I think one of the biggest responsibilities as a content marketer and as a writer, but more so as a content marketer, especially in-house, is you can have those battles and like you can have those conversations with internal stakeholders and that shouldn't be reflected in your work like in the final piece.

And I think going into it with a reader first mentality above all else above. Brand to an extent. Like I really hope I don't get fired, but you know that customer first thing has to come through. Like it's got to be the number one. If the reader doesn't care, it's not going in.

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting you mentioned Doug there and we probably have similar feelings about Doug, although haven't met him in in person, but, but Doug, if you want to come to the sausage factory, you know you're always welcome. It was one of his articles that we talked about loads when in the early stages of.

Rockee and it was the one probably everybody knows, which is the, deluge of crap in content marketing. And, just the proliferation of, content that is only really self-serving doesn't offer any value to the reader. So without trying to lead you at all, bearing in mind that I think Doug's article is probably about 10 years old now.

Where do you see content marketing at the moment? I know that's a ridiculously broad question.

Jess: It feels like such a cop out answer because I think every year, for, since ever you could say this, but like, we are on the precipice between great and terrible. With Chat GPT and like, you only have to go on LinkedIn for like, Seven and a half seconds to see a copywriter, you know, either decrying, how a Chat GPT will never take their jobs versus a copywriter being like, Hey, we need to upskill in other areas because Chat GPT is gonna take our jobs.

I think that gulf between the companies who get it, get it and the companies who don't, don't will just get bigger. You will have companies and you will have brands who go, Hey, I can do copywriting and content marketing for like, Zero cost because I can just get chat GPT to write it and it's gonna be shit, and it's gonna sound terrible and nobody's gonna care.

And it's just gonna sound like a bland robot has written your copy. And because there's gonna be no unique thought, no original insight, it might not even be factually true if we're looking at some stuff that's been coming out of, of chat GPT and like, I think it can be used I saw a post on LinkedIn and I, I can't remember who said this, but somebody was putting in their Positioning ideas into chat, GPT and if it was coming back, or I think they put in like the brief and if it was coming back with ideas, they were like crossing off their list, being like, okay, if a robot can come up with it, then we are not gonna present it to the client. And it's like, if you can use this in a good way, then you are onto a winner.

If you're using this to write your content, then like, I hope you get terrible results because, it's not the way forward. So yeah, I think we're really gonna see in like probably the next like year or two, what happens to the brands who do outsource everything to a robot versus the brands who do take time to go, Hey, I'm selling to people.

So maybe a person should write the content that will be reading.

Matt: I'm completely in alignment on that. Like, it, it feels like, you know, like you look at a product art curve or something like the adoption of content marketing, what, 15, maybe a little bit longer years ago. And like the level of adoption of companies doing it. And then the last five years has been a race to production.

Like who can produce more, who can produce it quicker? Who can dominate cert pages? And now if it was like, yeah,

, we're at the top of the mountain of it. Like there is literally only downhill from here because the gold rush, you know, there's no more gold. I'm, I'm really mixing up my analogies here and I apologize profusely, but there ain't no more gold in the mine.

Um, things like Google, they will eventually start turning around and going, look, we're just being flooded. We have to find a way of. Like working our way through this and like a lot of thought is now going, they are already saying it's reader first. Like put your reader first.

How they decide what reader first looks like, what metrics that go into that is gonna be really interesting. And they're keeping, like, they're keeping their cards close at the moment, which is absolutely fair enough. There's this dominance at the moment to chase volume. So like, I can make as much content as I can and I want as much volume of traffic to my site, it almost is irrelevant what happens next.

Like to a lot of people, it's like quite a single minded metric, which is kind of illogical as to what content's supposed to do in, in influencing people. for you and like, you know, the type of customers you're dealing with and events and stuff, like, what does, what does good content look like for you?

What are the defining characteristics that you, you keep an eye out for?

Jess: I think it's, yeah, it's a couple of things. It's first at looking at the broader picture of like how all of the content across the year and across all of our different buyers, across all of our different products, Yeah, obviously at Salesforce we have a huge, huge number of different products, different buyers, different industries, and everything is like highly matrixed to a certain extent, and it's being able to take that step back and first go like, okay, who is gonna be consuming this content?

And how are they gonna be doing it? And where and, how much they know about Salesforce. You know, we've got the people who are like, you know, our trailblazers, they love Salesforce. They are our best. Best storytellers, like they're the ones that I'm like, I can outsource my job to you and you will do it a billion times better because you're telling like a story that matters and you are using the language that, you know, we as copywriters have to work very hard to emulate and to pick up on.

And you're just doing it, you know, off the cuff and, and that's amazing and it's. And then you have people who are completely new to Salesforce. Like the region I work in, it's a growth market. Salesforce isn't as well known of course in the UAE as it is in the UK or in the US of course. So it's, you are really being able to work with like brand awareness and building like what does Salesforce mean there?

And so it's like looking at it from like a very, okay, how is someone gonna do this? Is it gonna be at an event? In which case we have to make sure that the content is. Helpful for somebody who wants to come and learn how to, you know, improve their marketing or like level up their service game. But then it's also got to be able to introduce Salesforce in a way that isn't gonna bore somebody if they know Salesforce really well.

But outside of that good content for me, it's got to fit the purpose. Why are you creating like a 25 page ebook for like an awareness campaign if somebody's never heard of you and they really gonna dedicate that much time to sitting through and reading that much from you. But if you're at the consideration end 25 page ebook, it's probably gonna be great because you can get into all that detail.

So it's understanding the format, the purpose above all else. And that's before you even get into like how well it reads and how unique it is and all that. It's definitely taking that, big step back and really analyzing like, Why am I doing this? What's the point of it? And it's really being like super self-critical.

Is it a vanity piece? Is it because you've got some budget and you wanna do something cool? But it's who is your audience? How do they wanna read this? How well do they know you? And what do you want out of it? And if you can tick those boxes or if you've got an answer to all of those questions, then you've got a good piece of content.

Mark: As we kind of alluded to earlier on, there's so much not so good content out there as well. What do you think kind of leads to that kind of bad content? , you know, there's lots of articles and people like us talking about the things that make good content. Why do you think it's not as prevalent as it perhaps should be?

Jess: I think a big bit is stakeholder management. Having been both sides of the table. As a client side marketer, if you do not have control and a good way to manage your stakeholders, that piece of work is gonna be terrible. You need to go into the briefing process knowing exactly who needs to say and how important they are, who has approval rights versus who gets to check technical detail, but nothing else.

Instead of going like, sure, Mr. Engineer, you have a say on how the tone of voice sounds. Everybody needs to have their set boundary and what they are looking at and having that really strict feedback process. I think every writer and probably most marketers can recognize a piece of work that is 7 billion miles away from the original brief.

Or when a copywriter has just sat there and gone like, exceptional changes without, you know, even bothering. And so I think first thing is, get that stakeholder management under control. Understand who you really have to please and who you can kind of like. Take the advice of, but push back against choose the battles that you know you can win and lose the ones in order to win , the war at the end.

You know, I think as a writer especially, I would have really petty battles with clients over nothing. And then when there is something that really matters, you're like, oh God, I've used up all my arguing, so it's. it's. like understand, I think bad content is caused by people going off volume.

Like Matt, like you said, we just need to get this out there. Like churn. We need to be doing like 50 SEO articles a week because otherwise, , how will anyone know he is, we are here. Like, it's that not having a, a really clear purpose and then not having control over stakeholders internally.

Matt: There's lots of really interesting. Like nuggets there that you, you've given out as to how you manage the process upfront in terms of feedback from internal, external stakeholders when the content has come out, the other side of the machine, how do you kind of retrospectively go back, look at it and go, this worked, this didn't work, this landed, this resonated. What tools and tips have you got for that side of things?

Jess: Uh, I think as a writer it's being really close to like your performance marketing team and making sure there's that open feedback loop and being able to say every writer has given a brief and it's like, Give us six subject line options to test with. But very rarely do you get the results back of those, of those subject lines.

And I think internally, as an agency or as a freelancer, if you can start building a bank and start going like, okay, well I know that the subject line with a question in has worked on like 15 different pieces of work versus the subject line without a question or something. It's like if you are working with a, a separate.

Dem gen team or somebody who's looking after your metrics, make sure you are so, so tightly aligned to them so they can tell you, this worked like this for the graphic, worked this, whatever. Really knowing that and then I think, what you guys are doing with Rockee is actually game changing and having the audience actually turn around and say, Hey, this really helped.

Or, Hey, this was really terrible, or this really missed the mark. Or like, why didn't you bring this in? And then of course there's the quality of feedback from sales. I think that's always really helpful if, if someone from sales turns around and says like, you know, Hey, that customer story that you created just got us a deal across the line.

Or, um, this format is super helpful. Like, it's great to have quotes, blah, blah, blah. Having that and knowing how they're using it in institute. That definitely all comes back in. It's not being afraid to ask for feedback, on the results as well, I think, and not being afraid to change it if it doesn't work.

Mark: I think that's, , a really important point actually, is that something, when Matt first told me about Rockee, you kind of go as a writer, you go, oh, great. People give me feedback on my work. And then you go, oh shit, more, people are gonna give me feedback on, on my work.

It's something like that kind of embracing that kind of mentality of. Of like accept it Actually, even if somebody does tell me that. This thing doesn't work, that's a good thing because then I can fix it and put out something that does work. Which then becomes quite liberating as, as well when you kind of almost that kind of fail fast kind of, mentality that you have in dev and things like that and applying that to, writing.

That's how I, I got past my fear of the feedback. Anyway, keep reassuring myself with , that sentiment.

Matt: I really love that last point you had there as well about getting sales feedback. That can get so overlooked so often because that's kind of almost the ultimate validation in two respects. One of which is if the client's saying, do you know what I really liked? That piece of content, that means you are answering the problem that they had.

That's the reason they got in touch. That's huge. So that's a huge form of validation and the fact that it's also bottom of funnel or it's helping convert into opportunities, that's kind of the job that we are supposed to be doing. Not just creating likes, not just creating traffic through to a website that doesn't go anywhere.

Like, so that's, that's massive.

Jess: Being close with your sales team is like one of the most important lessons I've learned over like the last couple of years. They know the customer, they know the prospects. So inside out, they, just have the information that every operator wishes they had in their brain.

And it's like, speak to them. Like, yeah, sometimes you have to translate it out of sales speaking into normal speak. But get them on side. It should never be this marketing versus sales. There's always like the jokes and the memes about it, but it's like you've gotta work together.

If you wanna be like a high performing marketing team, you've gotta have sales inside and you've got to be totally aligned to what your sales leaders are trying to do. Because if you are chucking out content with one message and sales are like, hang on, we're trying to push this product, or we're trying to sell this, it's never gonna work.

, you don't want sales to be, you know, dictating your strategy and, and saying what, passes is good content. Your content has to reflect exactly the conversations that your sales team want to have in the market. So at every point your reader is seeing, well, I've just had an email from a sales guy about X product.

I've just seen a LinkedIn post about X product. I'm just gonna watch a, a video or listen to a podcast about X product. You know, , It's all that like super consistent across every, every touchpoint.

Matt: Jess. That was incredible. There's so many insights there. I've got like 101 notes already that I want to like write down thinking about different things. So that was amazing.

Mark: I think we're gonna take, a pause for a quick, commercial message, otherwise known as a shameless plug, for Rockee, a chance for Matt to indulge his drama gcse, potentially. But we'll come back to you in a second. And talk good content in bangers.

Matt: Now wasn't that nice? I hope you all enjoyed that little advert. And again, if you have your own ideas for little lads or you want to contribute a little ad for us as well, do get in touch, contact details at the end of the show. Now, to wrap things up, we're gonna go through Matt's bangers.

That's the section of the show where we showcase a piece of content that we love. And this week, Jess, it's over to you. What are one of your favorite pieces of content and why did it work so well?

Jess: Okay, so this piece of content I first came across about 2, 3, 4 years ago, I reckon four years ago, pre, pre pandemic, which feels like. Yeah, a lot longer. It doesn't sound like the most exciting piece of content, but, it is a, an ultimate guide to building a business case.

This was created by, I really probably should have checked the name of the company, but I'm pretty sure it's du there at law, law tech startup. Type and they created this amazing piece of content. It's massive, it's super long, but it's the most in-depth piece of content I've ever seen. And it talks the reader through exactly how to put together a business case for buying piece of technology.

And it goes into all the exact details you need. It has examples. It tells you who needs to be involved at every single stage. And when I tell you, like I probably came across as a bit of content being like I don't, I know business cases write about business cases. Still, still not a hundred percent certain on what it is.

I think after having read this ebook, I was like, I'm actually looking forward to writing a business case. I want to write a business case so I can put all of this information to use. And it was just the detail that it went into the way it like literally sat you down and like I was start there thinking like if I was somebody interested in this piece of technology and I wanted to pitch it to my cfo, my cio, my ceo, I now know how to do that, and it just ticked every, and it was long, like, don't get me wrong, it's a long piece of content, but I was like, for the sake of.

Signing, giving away my email address. It was that like, you have got so much value and, and look four years later, don't even know if it's still live anymore. You know, it's that. But it has stayed with me and every content strategy I've ever made, I've tried to sell in a version of this to clients because I'm like, not only am I inspired to create a business case, I now want to write a guide to writing a business case.

You know, it just, yeah, it. This is the nerdiest thing of maybe ever sudden and.

Matt: worry, it's all recorded. So we'll come back for you.

Jess: It's just, it's just fantastic. I actually like follow the head of content at juro on LinkedIn and I always like his post and I must come across as like an absolute stalker, but I'm like, you created, I don't even know if he created the thing, but either he or someone in his team or his predecessor created this, this thing and I'm like, it's just fantastic.

It's just so valuable and it looked good as well. It was a nicely designed piece of content too.

Mark: Good pieces of content do stay with you though. Matt and I had a similar experience to you in, um, in fact I've found this tone of voice, kind of guide a long piece of content and again, was. Exactly what I needed at the time, written with like the audience in mind. Completely valuable.

And we ended up talking to them about their, I think it was like style guide and, software. And that was probably about four or five years ago. I'm still reference it to this day.

Matt: He, he never bought the software.

Mark: it was quite expensive. Um,

Matt: very expensive.

Mark: We've done a Matt Banger. That means we've gotta do a sausage of death. So, we know obviously for every. Matt's banger out there, there is at least one sausage of death. I'm not sure of the exact ratio. , a quick reminder of what a sausage of death is, for people who are wondering, Danish slang is, Something that's really boring is Do's Pulser, apparently, I forget how we came across this, but, and Do's Pulse means sausage of death.

So it's a nice uplifting way of, of finishing the show, by getting you to award one horrifically dull piece of content. , the s o d Monica. So Jess, have you got a sausage of death for us today?

Jess: Oh God, I actually have two. And I'm gonna go with the more difficult one because obviously I started being difficult about sausages, so I may as well end by being difficult about sausages as well. I would like to put, the Google search result in, I would like to ward that sausage of death.

I feel we as content markers, Have ruined Google search results. I very rarely search for anything on Google anymore because it's just stuff written for seo. You've gotta really , hunt for any kind of value and you, you'll type in like, where can I buy Airpods for cheap or something?

And it's like 50 articles telling you where and how to buy. You know, AirPods for cheap, but it's actually like, it's not relevant. It's not specific, it's not helpful. It's just churn. It's just stuff that companies have whacked up there because they wanna tick a keyword and you know, there's very little thought behind it.

There's, I. have Even less empathy or understanding or user journey or, you know, where are you going next? How helpful is this? And so I would like to award, sausage of death to Google search results. Yeah, there's so much space to, to be better in content and to give that valuable stuff, but it's, it's not showing up on page one.

Matt: it really isn't though. Do you know what? As soon as you said that, it reminded me. I, I was been, I've been kind of trying to research how to do various like, tasks and stuff the other way. Cause I was setting up some like, new tech platforms and I'm just like, I just want a really good guide that doesn't. Try and sell me something halfway through. And just finding something that isn't just written like really poorly or just with like loads of obvious keywords, spammed all over it. And you just go from page to page to page and you're like, this is terrible. But yeah, that's a real problem. That's a really big shout.

Jess: My second sausage of death goes to, so obviously we wanna get away from using eBooks and PDFs and all this kind of stuff and start experimenting with new types of formats. And then I was served a LinkedIn app that was like how to create like interactive content and like the way to go about creating interactive content.

I was like, cool, because. You know, interactive content, it's a very broad term. What do you actually mean here? Do you mean like just a webpage I can click on? Do you mean a video? Whatever? So I downloaded it and it was a very un interactive ebook that literally was just trying to sell a certain product that is an apparently an interactive way of consuming content, but didn't actually show the interactivity.

And it was just like a. Just come and come and buy a product. And I was like, so you're serving me a static ebook about interactive content and you're not actually being interactive. And I was very disappointed because I kind of came away from that being like, interactive content is an ebook.

Interactive content is an e-book with embedded links that will tick, like just take me to the next page or to the next chapter, like, I dunno if I fully understand this. So yeah, my second piece goes to a static e-book about interactive content.

Mark: Two very worthy sausages of death there, I think.

Matt: I would love to have been in the light, the strategy team, while when they did their whole planning, their messaging personas, which, what format should we deliver this in? So it's ebook somehow. One. I love that. I love that. So let's wrap things up. First of all, a huge thank you Jess for joining us.

Again, lots of incredible insights. It's been super valuable. I hope you've had a lovely time.

Jess: Thank you for having me on and for letting me just kind of. Monologue about, good and bad things in content, and hopefully none of us get sued by Google if you don't edit that. Um,

Matt: We, we can only pray. Let's wrap this sausage up. Let's get it packed up and get it back onto the shell. So in future shows, we're gonna be continuing to dissect what truly great content looks like with a number of guest experts, just like Jess. If you wanna get in touch, we'd love to hear from you.

If you have contributions to Matt's bangers or conversely the, the sausage of death, please do send them over. As always, don't forget to give us your feedback. You can find us on Twitter at Rockee io. Find us on LinkedIn by searching up Rockee or come through to our website, which is@rockee.io. Until then, that is all from the Sausage Factory. Thank you so much again to Jess for being on the show.

Thank you for listening, as always, don't forget to give us your feedback